In this episode, Katya talks to Daniele Fiandaca, founder of Token Man. Daniele is passionate about involving men in the conversation about Inclusion Equity and Diversity. One of his brilliant initiatives is the annual Masculinity in the Workplace Survey/Event where he and his team gather the information that informs their approach for change-making.
To participate in this year's survey and event go to - https://lnkd.in/ezyyUnzh
To have a look at last year's results - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oRaIAwv22nLgTH0ZOgxsISdDOIXLNzTA/view
More from Daniele -
https://www.tokenman.org/
https://www.weareutopia.co/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielefiandaca/
If you would like to learn more about the host and their work –
Website - https://www.blushcloud.co.uk/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/blush.cloud/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/katyaveleva/
Series 01 started on the 29th of September 2021 with a set of six episodes that will be airing every two weeks.
Enjoy the conversation
Transcript
Katya 0:00
Hello,My name is Katya Veleva and this is changing the atmosphere, a podcast about changemakers and how they did it.
As always, to look at the illustration that comes with this episode head to theblush cloud website or follow the link in the description.
TodayI have the pleasure of speaking to Daniele Fiandaca.
Daniele is co-founder of Utopia, an award winning culture change business that creates more inclusive, more entrepreneurial and healthier cultures forclients. Utopia’s top-to-bottom, boardroom to factory floor approach hasclinched household names including Alexander McQueen, Coca-Cola,Google,Spotify, TikTok and many more.
He also co-founded TokenMan, an initiative that gives men a better understanding of gender inequality in the workplace andinspires them to become a real part of the change. He was named one of Management Today’s Top 30 Male Agents of Change, and in 2019 was on theAdvisory Board for Inclusion Matters. He continues to nurture a number of communities he co-founded, includingCulture Social, a community for anyone who wants to build better work cultures,and has co-authored a number of books including CreativeSuperpowers: Equip Yourself for the Age of Creativity.
I have to admit, not many of my conversations about change and inclusion specifically are with people like Daniele - white cis men, and theyshould be. I really do hope that the future chats that I have are more likethis one.
Enjoy the conversation
Hi,Daniele, thank you so much for being here. It's an absolute pleasure. I'm delighted to be here. We've heard about you and all the great things thatyou've been doing. But before we delve into those beds, I like to ask all myguests if you've ever participated in embarrassing trends that made you feelnot so cool. And I will volunteer mine immediately because I know I have. Ispent a really long time of my life, just having a single line of hairs for myeyebrows. It was very, very, very bad, but the very 90s so what was yours?
Daniele 0:34
Ihad quite a progressive mum. So she seems to be ahead of the trend. So, you know, we grew up wearing Sergio Tacchini tracksuits before it became cool. Or Iremember where Montclair jackets were before anyone had heard of Montclairjackets. This is a long time ago. So we will never be ahead of the trend. Butby the time the trend came over, we'd already moved on to the next thing. So wewere always cool. So yeah. And when we ever participated in the chain, we weredefinitely ahead of it. But that was my mom, not me.
Katya 1:04
Well,cool or not, now you're doing some pretty amazing things. We're gonna talk about documents today. But can you tell me a little bit more about what yourlife looked like before you decided to start that?
Daniele 1:17
I've always done things on the side. So I ran something called Creative Social for14 years, it was kind of my side project. We got to do, you know, I worked inadvertising fundamentally and at my agency I was head of innovation at anagency but on the side, I had creative social, which was a community forcreative directors. We did events every six years around the world. We got togo through 24 countries, 26 events across 13 years. So amazing. We did eventsfor 40 people. So I think I've always had side projects. Even though I had theday job, I've always had that kind of mentality of having something else thatmoney wasn't really the driver for. It was actually a curiosity, funconnection. Yeah, there was no money involved, to be honest. But interestinglyenough, you know, creative social, and if you look at that actually led to TokaMan, to a certain extent. So it's interesting how side projects do lead todifferent things.
Katya 2:24
Soyou had your own full time job and you constantly have these side things going on?
Daniele
Yeah,that felt like a natural thing. Yeah.
Katya
So what catalysed the creation of Token Man? Was there a moment that you remember?
Daniele 2:38
Well,I think for a long time, it was said the reason it was called Token Man. So Isaid Creative Social kind of catalysed that, you know, I worked in advertising,we ran a community of creatives. And so although we were we were beyondrepresentation and some of the industries, the industry famously, only backthen, and we talking about 10 years ago now had 12% of female creativedirectors, which is criminal, given that, just if you think about the buyingpower women hold it should be the other way around, you know. And so, Iorganised the dinner with Origin and Bamback to try and recruit more women,because, you know, we knew work 24% but you really felt it, you felt it inrooms, it was still, you know, the women were in the outgroup. But you stillhad, you know, what is called laddish behaviour. And I kind of wanted to shiftthat. And so I turned up to this then I was head of innovation at an agencycalled Chow at the time. It's not like walking into a room with 12 women wassurprising because I'd organised the dinner. I knew I was doing that. I didn'tthink about it. And the minute I walked into the room, something happened to methat had never really happened in my career, which is a loss of my confidence.And people that know me still don't believe that happened. But it really wastrue. You just walked into the room, you were like, oh, what's happening here?I'm not wow, yeah, no, I know, you know, all of a sudden, I'm not as confidentas I was before and then conversations that as we sat down for dinnerconversations that we're having around me, where I felt I was being pushed evenfurther out the group. And I have never, maybe I should forward this podcast toLa??, and I've really spoken to her about it. But you know, she's one of mybest friends in the industry. And she is the first and actually last time butyou know, I got up to introduce the dinner. She cut me off. And these are allthings that I'd heard women facing in senior boardrooms. It's not I didn'tbelieve it. It's that I didn't believe I contributed to it. Yeah, it was no,there's no way I excluded anyone you know, people yeah. And then havingexperienced it, firstly, I got a realisation of what it's really like to be inthe group, how hard it is. And as a white, straight, privately educated,neurotypical, non disabled man, I've always been in the in group so all of asudden, I got to feel it. And I just, it horrified me because all of a suddenit made me realise that some of my own behaviours would have contributed tothat exclusion. And, and at the same time, it's funny how all these thingshappen to you in your life. At the same time, I'd started to speak a bit moreopenly about gender equality with some people. People said, I would love to beon stage, get you to speak and I said, I can't, I'm not educated enough. I'mnot ready for that. And also, at the same time someone, I went to speak at highprime, and I'm sure it wasn't aggressive. I'm sure it was just a very genuinequestion. But at the end of this really intimate talk, I was very honoured togo over there. Someone said, “what are you doing with the gender equalityissue?'' And it felt like at that particular time I was being attacked, becauseI just didn't expect it. And what happens when you feel like you're beingattacked to defend, you know, I got defensive, and I started defending why itwas how it was, as opposed to talking about all the good work I was doing. Imean, we, you know, we've created equals, I co-founded something called FutureLeaders, which is, I think within that programme, we've trained up (Ellie nowtakes it forward, but I'm still, I still contribute as a trainer) - I thinkwe've in that programme now trained up 250 women, female creative directors. Soyou know, we were doing really interesting work. But I came back and to behonest I was a bit angry with the experience. And so I went and sought out oneof the creative directors, Emma Perkins, who now runs up Legos, internal agencyacross Europe, I kind of I sought her out because I knew she was a feminist.And we started talking, and what I loved about Emma, is when I said the wrongthing, which I will invariably do, she didn't judge me. And she didn't evenpoint out that it was wrong. She just asked me questions. And what I lovedabout it is through asking me questions, she made me think, and throughthinking I could start changing. And so we came up to change. I was about toleave the agency. I was about to go travelling with my wife for four months. Ihad time. And I told her about this dinner. She said, we should do something.Are you up for doing something and I said, what a brilliant idea. And when Itold her about that dinner, the name came out Token Man. And we decided that wewill launch Token Man and you know, very proud of the fact that we launchedToken Man, two weeks before He for She actually launched. So we were reallyahead of the time in terms of just recognising the need to engage men. Andthat's what Token man is, Token Man is a platform to engage men.
Katya 7:27
So looking back at the history of Token Man from that first dinner, where you hadthis amazing experience that you've heard about, but you taste it for the firsttime. Until now, you see different stages of the development, how would youdescribe them?
Daniele 7:46
Yes,I mean, Token Man is everything iterative. You know, you have to, you know, if you think about eight years ago, the idea of engaging men in gender equality,believe it or not, was relatively new. You know, men weren't necessarily in theconversation, it wasn't they just weren't in the conversation. Often theyweren't welcome in the conversation. And no one minority in history hasaffected change that supports the majority. And while women aren't in theminority, unfortunately, a lot of the work that we do, which is in seniorleadership positions, they are in the minority. So we really do need to engagethe men. And so what happened, and it gets again, it became quite interesting.So when we first started the business, where we started the idea of Token man,we actually started by trying to organise dinners. So we wanted to recreate theexperience for senior leaders, which is impossible to do if no one wants to doit. People were scared.
Katya
People didn't want to come, the men didn’t want to come.
Daniele
Well,it wasn't even that he didn't want to come. And to a certain extent we didn't want them to know that level of how do you turn into an experiment? We did wantthe men to know, but we didn't necessarily want the other participants to know.So it actually felt really normal. We did actually manage to do one, and it didhave the impact that we thought it would have. But ultimately, that's what Ifocused on doing before but it just didn't. We couldn't get in because wewanted to do it. People were scared. I asked one, I asked one guy who works incorporate finance. I said, Can you just make your next dinner for all women?Really weird? I can't do that. Wow. And he said, and then. And then I said tohim, okay, your last dinner? What was the makeup and his last dinner was 8 menand one woman. So all of a sudden it's shifting. It was weird. You know? Sothere's just this, there's just this. It was a topic that people found reallyhard. So we didn't do anything before I went travelling. And so I came backtravelling, and I had a dinner with the we had through I've got three fellowco-founders, Penny, Georgia and Emma, who actually haven't really done, we'renot really involved anymore because of that, but we realised quite quickly Imean, they gave me the confidence they gave us the brand, you know thatwouldn't exist if it wasn't for them. But ultimately, they recognised that itneeded a male voice. And that's, you know, that's what it became. And so whatwe did is we actually recognised that what we needed to do is put a spotlighton the men that were creating change. So actually, you know, the whole CBSthing, let's talk to the people who are creating that change. We did a wholeseries of about 20 interviews with people. And at the time, I was still workingin the comms industries, I was mainly comms industry people, and some amazingpeople, some amazing stories. And I think I think it's fair to say thenarrative for the first four years was ally ship, getting men to get involvedwith ally ship and, and the reality was, I was going into, you know, it wasfun, I was getting to go to speak at women's conferences and lots of women'sconferences, but I kind of woke up one day, and I kind of thought, that's whatwe're taking over set up for taking members engaging men. And the ally shipconversations just weren't landing, it wasn't fitting asking men to come intothe room. So about the same time I was kind of going, I was actually feelingthat taking him out wasn't working and wasn't doing what he wanted to do. Iactually opened up a book that my wife bought me. She gave his gift to me justbefore we got married in 2012. And it's one of those books that I don't knowwhy it took me four years to open up, because it's one of those books where shegets to ask questions, just as lovely things about me. Okay, so I should alwayswant to open it up, right? If I need it, I suppose that's my privilege, Ihaven't needed to open it up, right. But about four years ago, I picked it upand I started reading it. And I came to this page here. And it said, to myfuture husband, the time I felt close to you was 2011 was Anissa rivulis,you've always shown strength. And I've always admired that about you. But thiswas the year I saw something I never saw before. That was your vulnerable side.It doesn't come out very often. And all I wanted to do was look after you. 2011was the year my brother died. As you can tell, it's had quite a big impact onme. I miss him every day. But just reading that had a huge impact on me,because it just hadn't really looked at masculinity and the impact it had onmen, and the patriarchy and the damage it did on men. And so it was really thatpoint that we started to pivot. And we started to realise how and asked thequestion. And I remember, I listened to myself, because when I went to thesewomen's conferences, I became the, you know, again, it's my privilege for thefirst time in my life I became the person that represents everyone else, right?Because the only men in those spaces, and it would always be white men here.And I would say the same things. What reason Have you given to be in the room?
Soaligned with that, and actually starting to say, well wait a sec, we need to get men into the room by actually understanding them better, and showing thebenefit to them of creating change. So the first thing we did is a wonderfulhuman being Roxanne Hobbs who runs the hops consultancy. She'd been running aseries called here and she, I connected with her. And, you know, we startedtalking and we said, let's do an event together. And we kind of realised thefirst event, the first place to go would be father's. So we did a, we did afather's in the workplace event, which actually led to the creation of tokendads, which went for about two years. But then it just kind of fell away simplybecause Tim just couldn't put the time into it. And I think this is partly thechallenge actually with, you know, doing for good. It's that. It's that andI'll come on to you know, where you know why, why I can do what I do with TokenMan, but we did the father's in the workplace. I'm not a father. So it wasn'tit wasn't the line, I wanted to go down. So it had to be something Iunderstood. And that's after father's in the workplace. For the last fouryears, we've done masculinity in the workplace.
Katya 13:55
So aseed was born of an uncomfortable dinner, then you had a conversation withsomeone supportive, who kind of gave you a push. And for a little while it wasstories of allyship that you kind of promoted. But then you kind of had alittle bit of a catalyst of grief that reminded you about vulnerability. Andthat made a significant change in how we were approaching things with Token Man. And then you arrived at masculinity in the workplace, which is now anannual survey that you do, right?
Daniele 14:24
It'sa survey and events. Yeah, but we're doing much more than that this year. We've actually done much more. And I think it's probably worth just saying, you know,token man is the reason I now run a culture change business called Utopia.Because about five years ago, I woke up one morning and I had no income nextmonth. And it's because Token Man’s taking so much in my life and so much of mytime. I think we can't underestimate the relentless pursuit of trying to dogood, if you don't then recognise the value that might give you. What willhappen is it's not self-sustaining. I just got extremely lucky because NadiaPowell had already worked on two projects I'd worked on. We started off on theback of Creative Social, we created innovation social, we were both heads ofinnovation at agencies. So we started that together. And she very much ran it.But we also worked on the great rich diversity experiment, which is an amazingexperiment, which we did. It's the only experiment of its kind, which reallylooked to prove why diversity led to better ideas. And it just so happened, shewas leaving her agency, it was very easy for me just to say, let's startsomething. So you know, you take as a culture, change business, so everythingwe do in token man sits alongside what we do professionally. So they becomevery mutually beneficial. So it makes it, it allows me to put much more timeinto it. Because I do know that as we're creating change, we connect with newpeople. That does mean to open up new doors on a business side. But to acertain extent, the most important thing for me is that I've actually createdthat change, and that change is sustainable. I can keep what I can, I can keepputting time into it.
Katya 16:09
Absolutely.It's tricky, because you can be criticising the system that you're part of it,we're allowed, we still need to survive. And feminism and anti racism areconnected to capitalism in many ways. And that's a fact. But we also need to survive. So we need to be able to allow ourselves some space to, to exist inthat. So when you're looking at this practically, again, back at that dinner,and your first conversation with your friend, what was the first practical stepthat you took to make Token Man happen?
Daniele 16:44
Well,we listened and having that follow up conversation with Emma was the catalyst.And so Emma then suggested I think we knew we had to have a website. And it really started with a brand identity and a website pending was a digital mums.So Emma knew she could build a website for us. And then Georgia was a creativedirector who did design so it was very practical. The launch team was very mucharound, how can we get something live, so we have a presence. And that's whatit was, I mean, Token Man was just an idea. And it's a platform to engage withpeople. And I think for me, you know, what's my people love, you know, as soonas you say, Token Man, they're interested, they want to find out, it's such a,it's such the antithesis of what is really the case, which is in most businesses,you'll have your token black person, or you will have your token woman, and soit was just that it was it was playing with that and actually getting okay, howcan we, how can we play with that and then find fault, you know, ultimately,ultimately inspire those men to become changemakers.
Katya 17:58
So you you kind of sought out this person who you knew was a feminist, and thenyou It sounds like you dipped into your existing skills, because you wereworking with an advertising and comms the group of people that you work with.
Daniele 18:09
Yeah,they came from outside the network's they were they were very much Emma's contact. So, it was just selling the idea. And then I think when it came downto the interviews, what we really realised actually, again, what wasinteresting is I didn't do many of the interviews, actually, most of the workin the first 18 months wasn't my voice. It was actually we got I use my networkof work of women, you know, who so the concept was very simple as you wanted tocreate conversations. So I need to have interviews with women that wouldinterview the men and so therefore, I can do the interview. So, but that wasthe best thing for it was only I think if I look at the final 4 interviews Iactually started to interview women's gifts. So we had that balance, but it wasjust going out there and just telling people what the concept was, and wouldthey donate the time. So actually, they would nominate someone and theninterview them and then write it up and so all we had was the platform. So wehad to deal with the Drum who were extremely supportive and you know, the Drumjust just published those interviews. So for me, it was using your existingcontact base. And to be honest with you, it's once you've got - I went to do lecturesa couple of years ago, and it was really interesting. The closing comment Ithought was so poignant. Michael Sheen, I think he said it was Carlo, who wassummarising what he said, but I really stuck with me, which was he just thoughtthey asked one question which was, understand your influence, and then use thatto create change, okay, and so, the reality was, you know, I was extremely wellconnected.
Katya 19:57
Itsounds like there's quite a lot of self awareness that you've taken advantage of here, initially with the dinner that you felt so different from when you tryto recreate that, then with your interviews, it sounds like you're recreatingit with what you had the first conversation with Emma. So that's somethingextremely valuable to be able to observe the thing around you and see what'sworking, what's having an effect, and then trying to replicate it and, and makemore out of it. And of course, sometimes there will be things that don't work.But the ones that do you know, it's always brilliant. Awesome. So, so far, whathas been the hardest thing?
Daniele 20:34
Forthe masculine to the workplace of? I can't tell you, you know, for the firstevent, I think we got six partners. I spoke to over 50 people in seniorleadership positions. A number of people said, we're not ready to talk to men,or it's not engaging men is not part of our strategy. Seriously, I still hearthis now. You're like, come on. Yeah. So I think a lot of you, it was amazing.Certainly the first call people were just so nervous about even recognisingInternational Men's Day, because actually, they hadn't been doing enough forthe women, no different to the management of change list. And I was on thatlist in 2018. You know, I reached out to every man on that and just just didn'tget the support. And so, you know, I think generally, and the reason we did thegreat question five or six, when we see this quite a lot, is we do see a lot ofpeople more interested in their thing being the thing that creates the change,as opposed to the change itself. Okay, so I and again, I'm a human, I like tothink I don't care whether it's, we get credited for it's all fake, I just wantto support anything that I think is going to create change, as a collaborationis really important in this space, working with others rather than rather thancompeting with us. And you know, this, you're part of our Utopian community, wehave to, we have competitors in there, because they weren't competitors whenthey first came in, to be honest. But as we've gone down the path things arestarting to align with. So they've moved into an inclusion, diversity space,but less than one there, because actually, you know, as Utopia, you know, wehave to keep on aiming for that thing, whenever you know, we're never going tocompletely knock down the wall, the barriers to inclusion diversity, we can dothe best we can and we need to aim for doing it. And the best way to do that istogether.
Katya 22:30
Ifthere is one niche, there's a lot of work to be done. That's the one and ifthere's one, I love this expression, that tide rises all the ships that's 100%applicable to our corner of work. And I think it's so important. There's plentyof work to go around. And we can only do better if we're doing it together. Andwe have a common message. It's a very interesting point that you're making itthe hardest thing to get people involved because that just comes to prove thatwhat you're doing is extremely needed.
Daniele 23:01
Andso eight years down the line, I think we finally got there. So you know, interms of where the activity will be, we've got a plan. So yes, we've gotmasculine to the workplace. I'm really excited about this year's masculine tothe workplace, because the title is beyond allyship. So it kind of feels thatwe've got it full circle, and starting to understand, because I have a lot ofpeople. But you know, we've been talking for a while, I think it can be reallydangerous. I think actually, I've seen a lot of people call it evil that weshould ever quit. Nobody comes as allies at the first thing, but being calledallies, when actually all they were doing was maybe supporting another humanbeing. That's just called being a good human being. And so therefore sponsoringa woman meant they were an ally, mentoring a woman, meant they were an ally.Actually, if you look deeper, they weren't making any changes to the culture,there was no systemic change. If you're not making a systemic change, you'renot so simple that an allyship has to be about systemic change. So reallyexcited about beyond the ally ship this year, we've also launched, I've now gotto the stage where we are creatively called Token Man's braintrust which is Csuite leaders, male C suite leaders. And we've purposely made it male C suite leaders.And it's not men deciding what changes need to be made. For everyone else. It'sactually everyone else telling these men what changes they need to make. Butit's creating a space where they can talk, where they can accelerate, and theycan actually start opening up about some of the challenges they're facing. Butalso it gives us an opportunity to educate them and really inspire them tostart shifting change although we might be going through the lens of gender.Ultimately the Chinese, when we're trying to inspire men to become inclusionmakers, not gender equality champions inclusion, make it so that inclusion isfor everyone. So we recognise that intersectionality and also if we just go togender women it excludes people that non-binary for example, so that's whatwe're planning. And I feel this is the first year I actually feel peoplestarting to wake up rallied against them. And I think they've got no choicepartly because we're seeing a backlash. Yeah, and so, but I'd go back to youknow, Catherine, Karolina Bain, who are first clients, now called Coca-Cola Euro Pacific Partners.The first brief over four and a half years ago, they came and said, they cameto Siddiq, you help against the men they totally got it from the outset. And ifyou look at the work we've done with them, it's so ahead of anything else.
Katya 25:38
Ittakes a lot of effort. I don't know if that rings a bell to you. But it soundsto me like the maturity of affiliate groups, right? Initially, you start themand they just need to be a safe space for people to complain a little bitbecause they haven't had a chance, then maybe there are some specific problemsthat are being identified and some action is brought together, neither kind ofnext steps. And it feels like the most current step in that development isfinally addressing the majority. Because we all know that sexism is a man'sproblem. Racism is a white people problem. And it really helps to kind ofacknowledge that to bring people together. So looking back, is there somethingthat felt like a huge mistake at the time, but you're very glad it happened onthe road...what was his mistake?
Daniele 26:25
I'mon my own journey, right? I mean, the reality is, so I'm not going to go intotoo much detail. But you know, I found myself in a space where I was triggered,and I didn't, I didn't, I didn't respond in a way that was appropriate. Youknow, I've had to go on my own journey in terms of understanding some of theissues that I know that I face. And I think the mistake of I would say therewas a mistake is, for too long we we spoke about the we spoke, we spoke a lotabout suicide, and the impact of masculinity on of traditional aspects ofmasculinity can have a man the negative impact. And we weren't at the same timeto talk about domestic abuse, as that was a mistake. But you know, part of mylearning was to understand that and to be challenged. And you know, when I waschallenged, I didn't react very well to it. But I think part of learning isunderstanding that taking responsibility for it, taking accountability for it,and then integrating it.
Katya 27:30
It'snot easy to be uncomfortable, but that's where we need to be. But at somethingelse, I couldn't help but now this twice so far, in this conversation, you'vementioned an occasion where you felt like you haven't you didn't have theknowledge to comment on something and you've stepped away. And I just thinkthat's so valuable because we suffer so much in our public debates. When peoplehave the power to step into conversation without having the knowledge. Andthat's just so so valuable. And I like to call myself a diversity and inclusionconsultant. I have the word expert, because I don't think that's possible.
Daniele 28:06
Thankyou so much. I hate the word expert. The minute you're an expert, you'refinished. Yeah. Can't be an expert. That's the whole point.
Katya 28:13
Absolutely.I think that the one key thing that makes someone good at supporting otherpeople trying to expand diversity and inclusion is their ability to do that andsay, Oh, I don't have enough knowledge or that I need to step away or to listenand to ask these three things is so much more valuable than containing someknowledge about specific conditions where things need to be done a certain way.So I just thought that that wasn't important.
Daniele 28:40
Well,I grew up in a society and in a workplace where my voice wasn’t alwaysconsidered important. And you have to understand that our voices on andactually can be quite damaging. If you're talking about the wrong thing, andyou don't have that information. There's a really interesting initiative bySimon, who is the chair of Mental Health First Aid in England, Paul Frampton,who's one of our Token Man interviewees, they started. So they called Yes, allmen, and it's an email. It's an initiative where they want to create change.So, you know, I'm supporting that in the background in terms of facilitatinginstead of running workshops, so I can do that in the background. But I can'tpurport to really know those issues as closely as I should have, at this pointin time where Token Man's kind of role in this is to support those initiatives,and give them a platform.
Katya 29:32
Itsounds very much like you're so conscious of your influence, and you're verycareful of where you would never strike influence.
Daniele 29:38
Ithink if there's one thing that I regret is I still don't think we have the,you know, it's frustrating not to have that influence. Hopefully with Token Manbrain trust with having that group of C suite if we can start to have thatinfluence to actually really accelerate change because I think influence is soimportant in creating change. Once you have that influence you need Spider Man,isn't it with power comes responsibility.
Katya 30:06
Itis what it is: some cliches are cliches because they're What? Where you can'thelp it? Absolutely. What was a pleasant surprise along the way that you lookback now? And you're happy about it?
Daniele 30:17
Ithink, as you probably guessed, you know, you said I made that conscious effortto go to Emma to speak to her, I didn't make a conscious effort to just see herand decide to have the conversation. I mean, that's the reality, these thingsjust happen. So going back to, I had many privileges, but one of my privilegesas a member Shorditch house,and I know for a long time, about four or five years, I actually did, Iactually, we curated content, so we would run sessions every three months. Andbecause I had that power, because I had that slot, I decided to run a Token Manworkshop. And it was called hacking, gender diversity. And this was five yearsago. And actually, all these things do, you know? And in the audience,unbeknown to me was someone called Catarina Barrows, who worked at Bloomberg.Katherine approached me after and said, have you ever thought about runningthis for companies? And the answer was no, because Token Man wasn't. I didn'tever think to monetize it. But actually, all of a sudden, what she'd done, itshould open an opportunity to go, where you can monetize, you can do this work,you can create change, while being paid for it. So I ended up running thatworkshop for 120 people. And that really started the journey. So I think thething that's been amazing, I don't think it's surprising. So I think humanbeings are wonderful at their core. I'm definitely an optimist when it comes tothe human race. But I've just had some amazing supporters that I think havejust made it really just made it so much easier. Now, Vanessa Valley runs thegender network networks. She's been up, you know, I got to speak on the stage.Thanks to Catarina, I got to speak on the stage agenda network networks fouryears ago. And she's been supportive ever since. And, you know, what's reallyinteresting is just how, as you build these relationships, how useful are they?So Vanessa invited me back in four years later to speak to her gender networks,you know, it's basically the heads of gender networks in the city,fundamentally. So you've got some really amazing companies within there. Andshe just said to me, listen, you've only got 15 minutes. But why don't you? Whydon't you offer a follow up workshop, just a free workshop, and I didn't eventhink about it. And I've offered it and next week, I'm running a workshop. Themaximum is 30. We've sold out of tickets, I've now increased it to 40, we'regetting emails people going. So I'm not suggesting that's going to lead toanything down the line. What it does, though, is it's given a deeperopportunity to create change, because we're running a workshop called hacking masculinecultures. So we are getting these businesses that haven't haven't ever admittedthat they have masculine cultures to start thinking about that line. And youknow, we're very clear we tape it, we're a culture change business. So if youcome to us and you don't think your culture needs changes, why are you doingWhy? Why are you talking to us?
Katya 33:20
You'vementioned so many people that have helped you. Who are your top cheerleaders?
Daniele 33:25
Yeah,I mean, Vanessa Valley would have to be top. Working with Roxanne has beenfantastic. You know, we've been doing this for four to five years. Now a lot ofwork goes into pattern events. You know, it's part of our do the right thing,strategy allows us to do it. But you know, working with Sam's been fantastic.Listen, I've got an amazing team. I wouldn't necessarily say that they're, theyhaven't necessarily cheerlead Token Man, but itself, but what they've done isgiven me the support infrastructure and the space to do it. So I think havingpeople around you that can support But listen, the biggest cheerleader has tobe Tina, my wife.
Katya 34:07
Sowhat would you say are the three most important lessons you've learned sincestarting to implement it?
Daniele 34:13
Firstone, I said everything is put an idea out there, start somewhere. Whenever thatstart is, make it sustained. Make sure it's sustainable, so that you've got sodo you think about the value it delivers to you? Actually, I do think it'simportant. Token Man for me is easy, because now it sits alongside what we dowith the tape. Yes, I can put the time in it. And that's the other thing Iwould say to men: don't underestimate how many good men there are, who aredoing work like this, you know, people like Dan Guinness, I don't think it'scalled good lad initiative anymore. But, you know, Dan, I've met people likejust Conley, a resilience, you know, there are some really good medic Kenny,the man whisperer, there are some people who are doing much deeper work thatI'm doing. Much better work. And so learning off them, but also working out howwe can facilitate them.
Katya 35:06
Awesome.Well, as a professional change maker, what's your advice that you'd givesomeone who feels like they have some influence, and they may want to use it tocreate change?
Daniele 35:19
Well,I think the first thing is to find the change that you want to make. I thinkwhen it comes down to it, you know, the last nine months for me personally havebeen hard. You know, I've been challenged in some of my thinking, if I wasn'tas passionate about it, I would have given up. I think the first thing is to findsomething you're passionate about, change is hard. I think the second thingactually, is kind of the flip of the coin is much easier for me. Yet to saythis, because I'm not a woman. I haven't experienced prejudice. But I'm tryingto change right? So I can take the emotion out of it. But even sometimes Ican't take the emotion out. And I've seen how I react when it does becomepersonal. So suicide, for example. And, and, you know, people saying it'sactually Wednesday isn't important. Yeah, that's triggering. For me. It's likesaying, men, you know, it's just like, wait a sec, there's some big issueshere. And we have to think about them. So I see how I react. And so I thinkit's very hard, especially that fine line between activism and culture change,because actually, Steven Lacey is one of my favourite Utopians, don't tell theother Utopians. He's one of my favourite Utopians. We put a survey out, Ithink, about two years ago to talk about changemakers. And his definition ofchangemakers changemakers, someone who breaks down walls generally. And I lovethat. And so I think it's understanding how you take people on a journey, andwhat we're seeing in the work and what I'm also feeling is, and when I saypeople, I look at me, I'm not going to give empathy to a white straight man,he's had it easy his whole life, like, but you have to, because actually, thechange we're asking them to make isn't easy either. And if we don't get tounderstand the challenges they're facing, they'll just give up.
Katya 37:20
Andto iterate what you're saying, we all need empathy, we all need that kind ofsafer space, because nobody can open up and make the first steps towards changeif they feel attacked. But this is why people like you and me come in, becausenot everybody is capable of doing that. And now we say I have so much space andtime for people that need to be angry. And that also needs to happen. But ifthat's that's the person who's calling you out and the time maybe it's time toseek other help. I just want to emphasise on how valuable masculinity in theworkplace survey is. I was actually recommending it to a researcher yesterday,because it really looks at what people say they believe their workplace is. Andthen it fills it in with some really interesting questions that contextualiseand actually look into the further definitions of what masculine and feminineis. And it turns out that people don't think that their workplaces aremasculine, but then they respond positively to a lot of the masculine the relatedqualities and attitudes , which I think it's a very interesting aspect of it.
Daniele 38:31
Ithink it's really interesting because if you look at Token Man, and Utopiasitting alongside, I don't think we could have got that Token Man insightwithout doing the work we do as you tape here. Because if I go into the seniorleadership team, I've never spoken to them before and I asked the seniorleaders, have you got mescaline culture, they will all say no. Spend fivesessions with them, which is an accelerated programme. At the end of thesession 99% will say yes, we focus on leadership. So what are the leadershiptraits that are valid or rewarded, versus the ones we know are really importantfor inclusive leadership? So now I think the most shocking thing was that over50% said vulnerability was important for inclusive inclusivity. Only 3% said itwas valid or rewarded. But 48% of junior mid level women said it was dangerousto show vulnerability at work.
Katya 39:30
Ijust got goosebumps. Yeah, this is a podcast but I didn't get goosebumps andthis is not the first time I heard this thing, but it always makes me soconcerned that it's dangerous.
Daniele 39:42
Andso that's you know, we use that report very much in the work we do at Utopia toget people to start to see where that cultural change might happen. But also weuse that work because that work also doesn't just talk about culture change. Italso talks about the damage on them. We are trying to pull mainly by gettingthem to understand by changing how much value they can benefit from it. And Ithink there's too much in this space of a zero sum game. So if you go and helpwomen, it means men are losing out. That's not that, that's just not true. Butdon't get me wrong if I do hear from people in the workplace, and I'm worriedabout my job, I want a job in five years time. And my answer is, quite simply,if you haven't, if you haven't embraced the change, and you're not, you're oneof the ones like, if you're not the ones leaning in, you're probably right tobe worried about your job.
Katya 40:30
Andthank you so much for sharing everything that you've shared. But with thisseamless transition, why don't you tell us where can people find you andanything else you may want to share about your work?
Daniele 40:40
Yeah,so just type in Utopia culture, change business, or type in Token Man,actually, I think Token Man does get to Token Man straight away. On the Utopiawebsite, you'll find the masculine to the workplace research. I highlyrecommend you read it, we got the next one coming out and sign up to either theToken Man or Utopia newsletter. And I'm hoping this comes out in time. So youmuscle into the workplace on the 19th of November. It's a hybrid event. Sowherever you are in the world, you can participate. But if you're based inLondon, fingers crossed, it will be that you have us in Kings Cross which is awonderful venue, and it's gonna be wonderful. It's gonna be a wonderfulmorning. So please do try and come along.
Katya 41:26
Andthat's excellent. Now, thank you again, so much for sharing all this. It's beenvery, very educational, and I'm sure people will find it helpful. And all ofthe things you mentioned in terms of links and how to support. More of yourwork will be down in the description of this podcast.
Iloved talking to Danielle. A major thing that I see repeating in my guest’sstories is this moment of reflection. Kirsti also had that pause she tookbefore she figured out what to do. Danielle also had a very powerful life eventthat made him think about vulnerability and I can relate to this myselfimmediately - the opportunity and space for reflection is a huge key tostepping into the change-making journey.
Anotherhuge point for me from this chat was how Daniele spoke about making his workself-sustaining. Doing good can be scrutinized in so many ways, and one of thefirst things that the critics turn to is “well you are ONLY doing this becauseit benefits you in that way”. It simply has to tho. We live in a physical worldwithin a system that requires money for survival. If you do the good that youwant to do entirely selflessly you will eventually have to stop. If you build asustainable approach to the change-making you want to make happen in the world,you can do it longer, and in this way, ultimately do more good.
Thank you for listening. Until next time - keep changing the atmosphere.
